Systemic Racism/White Privilege

Today I'm joined by a dear friend, Tru Veret Flemming to talk about Systemic Racism and white privilege both on the national scale and on the local level. We discuss the events surround George Floyd, the idea of Defund The Police and where it actually comes from and more. These conversations need to be had and continue.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Welcome back to another episode of Making the Martini. I am your host, Caleb Figgles. So this episode is going to be a little different, at least in um tone and content, but it's a a really important topic to cover. Uh in this episode, I talk with a friend of mine, True Verette Fleming, about systemic racism, white privilege, and the events surrounding the murder of George Floyd and the marches and protests. And I think it's really important to do this episode now, because I mean, well, for the past three months, the world has been talking about an election. For fuck's sake, we're still talking about it. And while that is important. I didn't put important in air quotes. Um important to talk about. The events of 2020 were much more than that. And I think that the world still needs to be having these conversations because the problem hasn't gone away. And so yeah, here is my interview with the lovely and talented true Thorette Fun. So, and it kinda goes a little bit like this. Hi, how's it going?

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Oh my gosh, living the best kind of quarantine, I guess one can, right? Just staying home.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

So before we get started, there was one other thing that I did find when I was looking through your Facebook today, like a professional stalking you. Um, you recently gotten married.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Did you get your wisdom teeth out the day you got married?

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Yes, I did. So uh, you know, long story short, um I'm in my second marriage, which is fantastic, fabulous, right? Things happen in life. And we took the day and we tried to plan it so that I could schedule wisdom teeth removal around the same time, but not the same day. And it just so happened to be that both of those appointments needed to be the same day.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

We wanted we wanted our date, and I wanted these teeth removed, so it is what it is.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

And you know, I bet it was wonderful and it was fabulous, yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

You know, it was personal.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Yeah, more people should do things on morphine.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Um luckily I got luckily I got married first. Um, which is amazing, and then I went and got the teeth taken out. But what was beautiful about it was um I'm I'm also an ordained minister, and so I wrote the ceremony for myself, and one of our friends uh she performed it for us, so it was actually pretty awesome. She just kind of did it, it was quick and easy, and then we went to the other appointment. So that's that was my life.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Well, there you go. Well, from everyone here at Making a Martini, which is myself and Scooter, we say congratulations. Thank you. Oh my gosh. Um, so we have a a pretty, pretty big topic to cover today. Um, and for everyone listening, the reason that I really wanted to have true on is that um during the you know May, June, July, the protests, the um marches, everything um that sort of propelled from there, I felt that you had a really eloquent and epic post, you expressed yourself um in ways that I felt was um really remarkable in a time when that was really hard to do. Um and uh when I was talking with a friend of mine, Adele, and I told her this is what I wanted to do for this episode, we both kind of looked at each other and were like, True. You should talk to him. And so uh so thank you so much for doing this and having this conversation with me today. Yes. Um and uh so what I want to kind of get started with is just sort of talking about um systemic racism. And I think that's a term that has always existed, it really started to get used more and thrown around more um recently. And for anyone who doesn't actually know, um systemic racism is um also known as institutional racism, is racism that is embedded as a normal practice with within society or in a oh my gosh, within society or an organization. And the reason I really kind of wanted to focus on that was because that alone I just feel is such a giant pillar of the whole concept of racism in America and well in the world.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Um and because that the fact of it being embedded as a normal practice, like that phrase when I read the definition, it was terrifying because it because it's such a big part of the whole idea, and it's also something that people more often than not probably do not know. Right. They are actually, you know, that they have that they have systemic racism.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Yeah. I I think that's why it um exists still, why it persists still, um, because it is something that um not one individual can make a claim to, um, whether they're making that claim because they want to take ownership and authority, or whether they're making that claim because they just have naivety. Either way, it's no one person's fault. And because of that, you know, you have the two sides, the people who are doing everything they can to make up for, you know, the systemic racism, racism or prejudices that they uh um get privilege from, or you have those who literally can't see it or understand it, therefore have no concept of what they do to contribute to it. So so it is wild um to know that because it's systemic and it is institutional and it has it bears weight and ground in our foundations as a society one, but as individuals, because of the society in its 300 plus years, you know, so so yeah, it it it it is really wild to know just how deep it actually is.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

It has it it it has such deep deep roots throughout, you know, everywhere. And I I like I said, I think um just the the fact that it becomes embedded, it's something that you are I I think the word taught is something that triggers a lot of people because I think when they hear people say, Oh, well, racism is something that is taught, like the image is like a family in their basement with like a little schoolroom set up, like you know what I mean? Like exactly like that's not it. It just because we're saying it's taught doesn't mean that you're telling people to do it, it's that you're not telling people not to do it.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Correct. And and and and a lot of teaching also is subconscious, so you gotta think about it that way. It's like even if it wasn't overtly taught, it is it can be covertly taught because you know, you don't have to blatantly be saying or doing anything for subtle things to to to go into the subconscious. So, so taught or embedded, I mean, I like the word embedded because it it really kind of grounds us and brings, you know, the word root. It it we were rooted, this country is rooted in it. So everything that this country kind of uh exists upon, when you really think about it's going back to uh the Trail of Tears, even, you know, literally just to own the to take over the land and and then to to use enslaved persons from you know the African coasts and and and to use them essentially to build a country. I mean, that's that's the start of the country itself.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Yeah, that's where we where we came from. Yeah, so it's yeah, it's fucking nuts. Um so like I sort of said at the beginning, um what has really been a huge catalyst for all these conversations and um the movements and and marches was the uh the murder of George Floyd. Um and I I don't I don't think that's something that needs to I don't think we need all the details that should be known. But for people who for people who don't and they might exist, um George Floyd was a 46-year-old man who was murdered after being handcuffed and pinned to the ground by the arresting officer's knee for eight minutes and forty-six seconds. And the charge that he was being arrested for for was paying for cigarettes with a fake, potentially fake,$20 bill. Um, which I guess if you believe that the arresting officer was correct, is a crime punishable by death before you see a judge. So Yeah, pretty much. And uh that's the and then then after that it's you know multiple police reports with conflicting statements and video evidence, quote unquote evidence um of them saying, Oh, well, we call it an ambulance, but we they didn't they didn't find to call an ambulance, um that's not reported, and then you know it so then after all of that protests all over the literal world. Yeah. And um and that's when like I said, I saw uh the the post that you were making and um really liked what you had to say. I mean it was a it was it was um there was so much that led up to it, but uh the the explosion of it was really remarkable.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Yeah. You know, for me personally, uh it it was interesting, it was an interesting time because, you know, I find myself as a black person to position myself in all sorts of circumstances and situations with all different types of people for for no reason and for all reasons. I mean, I think that I I love the unique the uniqueness of every single person, even if I can't say that I like that person, right? Like I really, I really truthfully love individualism. And I think that because I position myself in that way, it is a lot easier for me to um look at the world in a way where I'm neither survivor nor victim, nor, you know, like it's neither one. It's just I live a positive life and and I try to exude joy in all things that I do when I come in contact with people because of the circumstances that I've lived under. And, you know, without getting too much into it, I mean, I grew up in Connecticut in a place that, you know, one wouldn't think is extremely racist. And, you know, when I think about it in hindsight, it really was. So that my foundation as a person is founded in, you know, live going to predominantly white schools where even though I wasn't one of very few black persons, it still was something where race, you could tell everyone was subtly racist. And I guess because I never saw it very overtly, it was difficult to say that's what happened until you know you grow up and you you see how people are treating you and you see uh uh the subtle eye rolls and you see you uh you know how people, even in driving, you know, when people cut you off, why and which way they choose to cut you off, you know, things like that. And it's and it's not a level of paranoia because when you experience it a lot, you can't say that you're being paranoid about something that you aren't looking for, that you're not looking out for, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

So when I experience a lot of racism, it's difficult for me as an adult now to kind of like deal with it because it's not the situation per se, but it's the principle.

unknown 12:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

For me, it's the principle of how we treat and love people. So at this time, you know, it was wild to see here we are in 2020, about to go into, you know, a pandemic situation. We're facing this incredible time that that you know, we should all be kind of inside or be be doing safer things. And here we go again with more police more police brutality. And so, and so at this position in my life, I was working at a predominantly white institution. It was called um row house. I mean, I don't really care. Um, and okay, and um it is a you know rowing gym. And I started going there because I was on a personal fitness journey. And through my positive lifestyle, they decided that they wanted me to become a coach. You know, they felt like I I offered positivity to people and a team spirit, but as an individual, I kind of stood out. So they loved that and wanted that for their for their members. So through that, I I, you know, started studying for my um fitness exam for group fitness and learned their style. And I learned all this stuff because I was really excited about taking people on a journey, you know, uh of all walks of life, of all weight classes, of all fitness levels, of everything. And um what happened to me through that experience mixed with, you know, uh George Floyd, uh Maud Arbury, Brianna Taylor, you know, name after name, it was like I needed to speak out. And because they encouraged me to be me, which I was going to be anyways, I had to kind of look at the membership and look at the team and kind of question what their level of privilege or level of um uh disillusionment to what the world was for a person like myself who is considered on their team. But if I'm the only black person there, then they can't possibly say that they truly understand my situation or what I could be going through. So posing them with questions of like, you know, where where kind of do you stand on, you know, defund police or where do you stand on the riots in the street? And and I say riots because that's what they were calling them riots, right? I know that they were protest. We all know anyone with any real logic knows that people in pain are gonna first protest to be heard, and then when they aren't heard is when they start to possibly destroy stuff. But but those are a lot of agitators, anyways, in most of these cities. So we can't even say that that it were the people who were protesting, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:48

I I agree 100%. It was um I mean that that was the the pivotal sort of peak of my um Facebook activity with response to all the people that were saying, Oh, well, all they're just a bunch of looters, they're rioters, and you have no you were looking at two different groups of people, two different worlds, yeah. Uh I actually I have a note here that so at Pittsburgh we had a a lot of um marchists and a lot of protests, and the majority of them were incredibly peaceful and they were orchestrated really well. There were a few that did have police involvement. Um, a lot of the Pittsburgh residents got tear gas, they got shot with the rubber bullets, um, and like tear tear gas.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Tear gas like legit tear gas legit rubber bullets to faces, arms, legs, where whatever, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

It and the the biggest, I think, moment that sort of I believe sparked the a little bit more of the police involvement was the very first one that got out of control when um a group of kids, I think they don't know when no one collectively was over the age of like 23. I could be wrong, I didn't look that up, but they set that cop car on fire.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Yes, and that's exactly what it was. It was agitators.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Yep, it was I'm calling him out, Brian Bartells. Um and that little piece of shit started a GoFundMe for his lawyer. Yeah. To be able to pay for his lawyer, and GoFundMe took it down. So good for GoFundMe.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

But um But it was, it was it was exactly that. Like you mentioned, that really brought up my speaking out more because at this time, you know, I could see on social media what people's position was. Either they were very active or they were not active or they were active but nothing acknowledging what was going on in the world. And the reason why I was vocal is because at this place they encouraged us to have a social media presence for, you know, not necessarily followers, but you to have followers who are your crew members, you get them motivated to show up and stuff. So at this time, you know, to see a lot of where people stood, it made me uncomfortable because I kept thinking to myself, here I am as a person who they would never even guess goes through a lot of racism, you know, even just on my way to the facility, you know, would never really guess that their facility could ever be a non-inclusive or not safe space for a person, including a person that works there and worked out there. You know, but when I chose to work out there, it was my choice. I could walk away. When I'm working there, and then people rely and expect me to be a certain level of coach or a certain person, then it has a lot of weight. And I always take that responsibility. And it's my responsibility to teach and to coach and to help people through. And so I needed the people who would never be able to speak out, like two previous employees, to speak out. Like I speak for those people who are afraid to, because for me, it's the principle. It's never the situation for me. I've survived a lot of stuff, I've made it through, but I've never said that I was a victim. So therefore, there's nothing to survive. I just live. And I want that for everyone. So because of that, I spoke out, and that's why I had wrote with my husband the article that you um took a look at, which we we will reference.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

And and because of that, I got the ability to kind of speak out and for you to see, you know, this this part of myself, which is passionate about the injustices that people face, but realizing that we all do have a part in it, you know?

SPEAKER_00 18:24

It it's everybody. And um the article that he's referring to, it's called Um Victim or Victor with a question mark at the end of it. Um, and it is on a it's it's on a blog spot post, right? Called Between Black and White. Yes, correct? Okay. Um and it uh it I'll um we'll put the the link in the the podcast episode so people can get to it. Um but it was it was an incredible, incredible read. It's it's about it's it takes maybe 30 minutes, you guys, and it's it's really, really powerful and it's really honestly heartbreaking. Um and there's one point to find it. I probably should have been prepared. Um about halfway through. This was um something that was written when you and um your partner decided to leave. Yes. Um and the the quote that I have sort of picked out, I mean it's a long one, so just bear with me, everyone. Um a person or organization's silence on controversial topics allows others to create a narrative for them. That doesn't make the created narrative true or valid, but it usually carries some credence. A viewpoint like this may make it seem like we expect everyone to immediately go and write out how they publicly feel about anything controversial, but that's not what we are saying. They they can start by focusing on the topics already being discussed. And that was huge for me. Like I had to take a break to like process that a little bit. Um because that one truly did resonate with the story leading up up up until up until that that quote. Um and uh it it it it hit it struck a nerve um in a good way. And uh the the the the whole piece itself um really well thought out and eloquently written. And yeah, like I said, like I mean and I just lost my train of thought, sorry. But um and you this was written like I think in June.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Yeah, so the whole time was like May, June, yeah May June time, you know, so definitely the high point of the situation. Yeah, and again, you know, uh a lot of it had to do with people who are all good, well-meaning, and intentioned not recognizing that they still can do better, right? And it's not that everyone is expecting people to do better, but it's if you're saying that you're a good person and you truly do want equality for all, and you truly do understand what it's like to, you know, be underprivileged or to be underserved or to be you everyone's been disenfranchised, everyone. So if you know what that feeling is like, then you can do the type of work to keep other people from feeling like how you felt. And because of that, it is my understanding that a lot of these people really are good people and really do mean well, but have to understand that they position themselves for for they position themselves in in these ideologies that really only serve the communities that they are active in, and most of those communities aren't diverse. So if they aren't diverse by nature, then you cannot say that you truly understand and want to do what's best for everyone. Right? If you look around and everyone looks like you, unfortunately, you know, whether it's it's everyone in the black community or everyone in the Indian community or everyone in Chinese communities. You know, whatever community you're part of, if everyone looks like you, then chances are you're really not getting the viewpoint of the world. And I'm lucky to have been able to travel the world. You know, I I'm lucky to be able to have met so many people from so many different countries and to live with them for extended periods of time so that I really have a good view on the world. And it's unfortunate that a lot of people don't get that, but you don't ultimately need that to be so open-hearted to trying to understand people from different places. Because we've all been disenfranchised and we all know what it's like to be a loner or to be uh or to think that we're ugly or to think, you know, these things that we kind of have the mental control over that people like myself, uh, because of this color of our skin, are systemically and institutionally held back from. So it's like in order to even break those, we all have to have that common feeling. It's like I don't want people I don't want people to feel bad. I don't want people to feel like they can't be whoever they want to be or do whatever they want to do.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Yeah. It when you you actually said something that sort of sent me in a slightly different direction, but you had mentioned that you do believe that these that the people are good people. And I I feel like anytime a conversation starts to happen where um if someone is trying to explain to someone else why they feel this way, it it it is this immediate like reaction to go on the defense. Yes. Because I think they have this this mindset of being like, Well, that means that you're calling me a bad person. It's like, no, that's not.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

And that is a level of privilege that we call white guilt.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Yep. What I mean.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

And so, and so for me, it's not something that I ascribe to because I refuse to allow an adult person, mostly, you know, people with I, in my opinion, some kind of intellect or common sense to uh allow their inability to control some sort of emotional outburst when we're looked at as irrational or too emotional or angry black people or, you know, whatever in comparison and and get far worse treatment just for that when they're looking at you, and instead of owning whatever they can agree with and saying, you know, I disagree with in and trying to have a conversation about it, but allowing the person who actually experiences it the space, that that is mostly the problem is that they then feel defensive because there is a level of guilt, and there's there should be no guilt, there's nothing to be guilty about, just make your amends. It's really simple. Better yourself. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Everyone is growing and learning every single day. And this is just something that people need to understand, self-included. When I was doing all of this, there was um, I don't remember when, but it was a huge moment of of clarity for me this year when I went back and thought about it. And I had made a post on Facebook years ago, and by years I mean like three. I don't know. Um and it was a post in reaction to online petitions demanding that Lizzo be cast as Ursula in the live action Disney movie.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Okay, yeah, I remember that.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

And um they said that because Melissa McCarthy was in talks to play it, that Ursula had to be black and it should be Lizzo. And I didn't understand, and I said, Well, why? Ursula, the character, is based off of Divine, the famous, you know, drag queen, movie star, and voiced by Pat Carroll, who is this short, cute little, you know, white woman. And I made that post not thinking anything of it. And people came out of the woodwork to like comment for you. Yeah, saying that I was racist, that wow, insensitive, that I was, you know, as someone who performs, how could I ever feel that way? And I got mad. I did, I absolutely did, and I was like, what is happening? I was like, I rightfully so.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

I mean, you were attacked.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

I was like, it was, and it it it mostly I will tell you, by white people.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Well, um, and I thought about it. But those are those are the the the the performative allies, yep, mostly so.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

And yeah, and you know, with yeah, but uh what I've sort of thought about this year, um, because for a while it was a a joke, and then when everything happened and you do start to like look at yourself and say, well, you know, how can I be better? What have I done? How have I you know, when you know, one of the things that we're gonna talk about is white privilege, and I went through and was like, How many times have I benefited from that alone? And with that post in particular, me saying, you know, why does Ursula have to be played by a person of color? Which the main argument was because she was purple and I didn't understand. But my thinking now and looking back, it's like, why should it not be played by a person of color?

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Right, because it goes on the same thought vein. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Yeah, it absolutely does. And it's it, you know, like that one tiny word is enough to change the whole perspective and to be like, well, then maybe what I said was a little insensitive, and I didn't think about the other side of it. And it definitely wasn't where my mindset was coming from. It was like, well, I know Divine and Pat Carroll. It was to be perceived by someone who doesn't understand that or who sees that as me saying, Well, it shouldn't be played by a person of color. I get it. And I understood that. And I was like, well, then I now understand why it came across the way that it did. And that's been my growth of 2020. Yeah. Is the live action Little Mermaid.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Well, that's I mean, that's a lot to grow from though, because I think that what is learned there is that you know, all of all of our thinking comes from literally our our lived situations, our perspective. So, you know, the the level of privilege that you experience is not one that you l like I was saying earlier, that you can just take ownership of, and like, you know, you kind of have to live through the experience to see it, like, oh wow, because I, you know, I am a white person, and you know, and I know by default that it's about divine and I know who the original singer is, but it's like, you know, that's from your perspective. So you use that thought process to arrive to it, should it it probably should be played by a white person. Like, why should it be played by a person of color? Which I, from my viewpoint, could go, well, if you even think about the the other semantics, but not really semantics, is that the um okay, yeah, she's purple and she's curvaceous and she's sassy and she's all those things that Disney would try to pin on someone that technically was of color, right? So, like when you talk about the characteristics of that character, yeah, maybe by default, you know, uh white person inspiration, white person actually singing, but by literal, you know, stereotypes and things like that, she kind of is perceived as that, right? Like an evil body woman, you know, and it's like, and and that's what that's what's so wild about you know casting and so wild about institutional racism as it is, because you're you're bringing up how it how it plays into casting and into theater and how it how it plays into that part that you know that's how we're connected for sure. And so so to see that in theater and to see it in in you know a gym, you know, it it it it was rampant in everything. So it is rampant in everything, and it's wild. It's wild to know that you people called you out for that. But even though they shouldn't have necessarily called you out for it, I I don't think that it should have been a calling out of. It's beautiful to see the growth because we all can and do grow from everything. I mean, we have to choose it, but it is it is possible.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Yeah, I I I agree with you 100%. Um, and actually, I mean you since you brought it up, uh you are a performer of the performance type.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

Yes, um performance type, of course.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

Um and uh I've I've definitely seen you in several things, yeah. I don't know, just just things in Pittsburgh in general, um fill in the blank. But um coming from that sort of mindset, like that perspective, that side of your life, uh how has you know this been reflected in in the work that you've done? I mean, obviously no one's really done much this year, but um as someone who's performed performed, yes. You know, when you perform all over the world, you know, right? All over the world, yes, the world. And uh what has sort of your experience been like in that aspect of your life?

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Sure. So I think that in many ways um this industry can be exploitative to black people and persons of color. And I say that because it's always that line of when you're a white person, you just expect that everything is cast as white. Like in your mind's view, you think of a show, you think of the title, it's probably a white cast, white ensemble, white leads, white directors, white everything, right? And then you get you pepper in people of color and you pepper in black people for diversity and for the different shows, but they're in stereotypical roles, okay? And then you have, you know, the ones who are breakout stars who they're the first Annas and the first Elsa's and the first uh dear Evan Hansons and the first, you know, they're the first. And so then it's a highlight. And so then you have people looking for in general, we all are actors and we all want to perform and we want to do the best we can to play any type of character. I think if the character is described as a certain type of race, then you have no choice to honor it. If the character is not described by a certain type of race and it is not described by a certain type of ethnic background, or it's not described by anything that is like a real life tangible, then any best performing actor should be able to play that role, right? And it shouldn't be a first this, a first that. What it should be is someone playing the role. Now, if, you know, a lot of the industry is based off of, you know, okay, if there was, you know, the first black person to play this type of role, whether it was intended for that character to be that or not, in the Broadway scene, it's almost indicative of, you know, a track. So therefore there would be another black person to play it next. And or there would be another, you know, let's say uh of Asian descent girl or guy to play it next. Like it it kind of stays that way. And what I've noticed is what we've moved forward forward to, or oh, excuse me, what we're what we're moving forward to is more representation that is authentic, but also that is kind of naturally diverse. So not telling people to go write their own shows if they're unhappy of the roles that they're getting cast in. You know, it it's it's it's having the teams come together that, you know, say, okay, we have the people who've lived the experience. Maybe we have a director who has also lived the experience. And maybe we have, you know, some of the producers who have lived the experience. Like it's about really bringing everyone to all parts of the industry. And because that's not happening, then you can say definitely that the industry is exploiting black people and persons of color because they want them for quotas and they want them for inclusion, diversity standards, but they don't necessarily want them for the true stories. Like, you know, how often are the predominantly white audience theaters putting on full cast black shows or putting on white expected cast shows with diverse and mixed casts? Like, how often is it happening so that you start showing, hey, audience, this is what your world actually looks like and what you should be expecting, one, which then maybe you'll get more people that are diverse coming into the audiences, but then also just the fellowship with the different communities. That's what I think is lacking the most in the industry is the fellowship with the communities that gets underserved communities to be patrons, gets them to possibly become, you know, ushers and and and scenic crew and and become part of the theater so that it's fully involved. And I and I think that it starts with it honestly starts with the top, and the top is this the system with the people with the money. So it it's exploitative, like I said, because really they just want us to perform shuck and jive, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

Just you talking about that made me think of um because I was like thinking back to like shows that I've seen that I'm like looking and trying to remember in my mind like what the cast looked like. And there's one clear, clear standout for I think a show that got it right. Um, at least from a casting perspective, I really couldn't tell you about the production team. But in September of 2019, pre-2020, so basically 20 years ago. Yes, um, I went and went to New York and my brother, he it was for his 21st birthday, I took him to see Mean Girls. So after that, I went and saw a show that I did not I had no clue about any of it, knew nothing. All I knew was that it was the music of the go-go's. The show was called Head Over Heels. Okay, yes. And it had the most non-type casting that I've ever seen of any show. Like there there was no mention of anyone except one, and it was only the one of the characters um who was played by Peppermint from RuPaul's Dragons. Yeah, it required a and they demanded it be a trans actor. And she actually was the first openly trans person to have a leading role for them on Broadway. But even like down to like the ensemble, it was every single person, it was all different colors and generation, like it was and it was true. It was everything, yes. I don't know if I noticed it more because I was a person who has performed, um, or if it was just because, you know, I wasn't used to seeing that much diversity in a show that doesn't explicitly right.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

And and isn't that a shocker though? It's like, but you're you're fully self-aware enough to come to that realization and then to be able to try to decipher why.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

Why right?

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Is it is it is it because you're just so not used to that? Like in for many, and in many ways it is. It's like we're so not used to that. They they stick with the traditional kinds of shows, you know, keep pumping the same type of stuff to the audience that is going to come and show up and pay the bills, which is fine, do what you do. But when you talk about inclusion, you talk about diversity, and you talk about stories, and you talk about like really trying to, you know, bring catharsis to the people through laughter and through tears, like you have to give them a full experience. And if you're only showing them an experience that they can already relate to, then unfortunately they're not learning or growing.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

And that kind of leads into I do want to talk about um defund the police. Because it's I I actually learned a lot in looking at this up, which is you know the whole point of my podcast. So that's good. Um, but so listen up, world, because Defund the Police is not something that started because of George Floyd. So we'll just get that out right here. Get that out of the way. It has been around since the 60s, okay? Um, when the war on crime was established by Lyndon B. Johnson. And the oh the what the hell did I write? Oh, though, I'm sorry, there's two pages. The war on crime movement giving all of its all of this funding to law enforcements and prisons to get criminals out of the street and into jail by any means necessary. So guess who was the most targeted group? Right. Um so yeah, it did not start in 2020. And uh the funding did while the war on crime did end, the funding did not stop.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

So January 1965 is when Johnson is like, hey, war on crime, we're gonna clean up these streets. And that is literally five months after the Civil Rights Act was passed. Correct. Which was July twenty July oh my gosh, July 2nd, 1964. Um, and for if if you don't know, um the Civil Rights Act forbade the discrimination on the basis of race. So five months later, you had this um they just shifted movement that gave a loophole to the Civil Rights Act. And um after that, August of 1965. So six months. That's probably wrong, but it doesn't matter. Moving on. Uh in 1965, in Watts County, California, a black motorist, and if you don't know what a motorist is, it's just someone who drives a vehicle. I had to look it up because I did not I wasn't sure what they meant by motorist. Um pulled over for quote unquote reckless driving, a fight ensued, a man was severely beaten, which led to six days of civilian unrest, so riots, which resulted in 34 deaths and 40 million in property damage. Um that that that alone, like that whole thing, is something that would be taught in a history book and it was literally just 55 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

Yeah, and and it's it's wild to see how it you would you would you wouldn't know that there was 55 years in between, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Yeah, but you wouldn't. And it it it it's so funny to me, and when when I think when the topic of racism gets brought up in general, people who don't have uh uh or don't believe that it's something that still exists, their minds go back to like slavery or the the the 40s or things like that. I'm like you are not wrong in saying that that is part of it, that is true, but that's it's it's still here, we're still dealing with it every single day. It's not like it's this you know, history lesson. It's it's just less.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

Yeah, it literally just shifts in what its facade is. Um, you know, so like you said, to if you break down the this small shift here to go from you know civil rights act to to war on crime to like focus the narrative, focus the the what you're doing to redirect, it's a lot of redirection. So, you know, now that you can't discriminate based on you know race and whatever, what you can do is that there's gonna be a war on crime. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna we're gonna one incite crime, but we're also gonna create environments and situations where they will create their own crime that we will then have to fight. So essentially, when you put you know a bunch of black people in underserved neighborhoods and areas where they have no ability to uh pursue liberty, like they when they don't have that, they're gonna there's gonna be crime, and then you're gonna fight that. And then let's say that you know they're they're not creating their own crime, well then what's gonna happen? Well, there's gonna be crime that's created and then blamed on a certain, you know, so it's like it's been a lot of redirection, and it's really sad to know that it's always been happening, but even when you just pinpoint this very similar situation 55 years ago, and you're like, wow, yeah, no difference, no real difference.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

No, I think the only difference, and I and I hope I don't like don't jinx it or anything like that, but I think the biggest difference is that Deep and the Police has been around for you know 55 years. And the the difference being that now I think people are actually starting to listen. Now listening is the easy part. Um action is where you know we like to see things change. Um so yeah, that was um that I I I I really didn't I did not know that that was I thought that was something that came up this year. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Well, just because everything is high like everything is heightened and highlighted this year, and it seems like we're in a a a phase where you know you get a tagline and it seems like it's super prevalent, but it's like, okay, you know, Me Too movement wasn't something that was new, but it was super highlighted. So it's like so to bring it back, it's like defund the police is not even really what it sounds like, right? It's really just saying, let's actually reprogram the institution of policing so that it can it can benefit those who are already disenfranchised by it and this is a and this is a service to the community. So it's it's sad to know that in very suburban areas that it doesn't seem that there's a lot of policing. And it's like, why? Well, because there's community outreach. It's like a lot of those police live in those neighborhoods, and so they're neighbors with people and they go to the same community boards, and they're they're on the same uh school boards with the with the parents, and like they all play soccer, and and and the community becomes a community. So if you have police officers who don't live in those communities, then you can bet you they don't know those communities well. enough to be policing them in the correct way. So therefore, if they've got military, you know, weapons and they've got all this force in this neighborhood, but not in that neighborhood, you gotta kind of look at it like, why is that? Why in this neighborhood are, you know, children who are thieves are are generally, you know, taken to some kind of program where they get to be rehabilitated back in the community versus being sent to juvenile. Like what is the difference? Well a lot of it has to do with being white and being in those communities and those cops being from those environments and being black or persons of community or persons of color or in disenfranchised neighborhoods and those police officers are not really from those communities. So it's like focusing that in a way that benefits the communities where they one feel safe and feel like they can rely on cops, but also they're also helping the cops maintain the communities. They're helping saying you know no crime in our communities because it's one for all of them. And I think that so when we think about defund police, we have to think about it as not really getting rid of police officers and really you know saying screw police officers. Like no, they do a very, very good job of protecting our communities. But at the same time because of the institution and because of quotas and because of racism, you betcha they're policing black people and persons of color in equally there, you know so it's so really again thinking about deep on the police, we have to refocus what that what the narrative means what it what what it means, yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

And that once again you segue perfectly into um let's talk a little bit about uh white privilege because it's something that I think um is not talked about enough and not in the sense of um among all people but the white privilege is a straight up white person problem. It's something that they need and they we need to talk to each other about to address because to be honest like it it's I can't imagine I'm trying to think of like a really good metaphor I wish I had before this very second. But it just the idea of if I were to come to you and be like hey listen I really think that I have a problem with my white privilege what should I do? I'm like that's not that's yeah like and that and while while I know that does happen and the effort is being put in it's just being put in the wrong goddamn it's the worst it's the worst. And like the excuses that I have and I I just have a couple here for people that don't think that they have benefited or not even benefited. Benefit might be the wrong word but don't have it. They they they usually don't think that um and these are things that I've like actually seen on Facebook posts that I've heard in person um that slavery was so long ago get over it. Okay. Um I don't see color. Well you fucking should because it's everywhere and it's g embrace it. You know uh the world's getting blacker and gayer so just get over it um is what I have written down. But you shouldn't judge like see color just don't judge people over it.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

Right. But that was that's one that I just see all the it's the most it's the most popular one and really it just allows people to not take ownership of their own lives. I mean they're they're basically saying that um I can't see it and not make a judgment on it and therefore not behave in a normal way. Like it it's all an excuse like you said.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

I I think that there are so many people out there that just refuse to acknowledge that it even exists. Yeah. And I think that that is huge because not acknowledging that it's there and it is ever there everywhere your life like like all of it is only helping to propel the stereotypes that help enforce racism. And my example of that is that people in the South like people that support the Confederacy and you know all of that they they truly do believe that the Civil War was over states' rights. Okay. So what what the fuck do you think the states were trying to have the rights to do they were trying to own slaves. Like that was the right correct and I'm like not even acknowledging that that part of it like saying that um there is a documentary episode or um I don't really it's a documentary show four episodes and it is um Chelsea Handler it's on Netflix it's called Chelsea Does and one of the episodes is Chelsea does racism and she goes down to the South and she's talking to these people and they just refuse to believe that racism is prevalent and it it's just absolutely like astounding to me and that was where I got the so many people don't believe that the civil war had anything to do with slavery. Like fuck up yeah and so you know that that to me was that was a lot. But um I think when all is said and done it it cannot be especially like systemic rel racism right now and how we need to combat it cannot be just people of color advocating for people of color. It's gotta be everyone joining in on the conversation doing what they can and if they don't know finding out because right now especially this year or the past four years if you think about it you know um the fear and hatred of other races that have been propelled by certain individuals the the term that I heard that I've most recently enjoyed was horn face shit gibbon. So shout out to Lisa Ann and Owen Thompson if you're listening but propelled just by spreading misinformation so it's uh yeah let's do better world. Let's do better. We all can do better. We can and that there's nothing wrong with admitting that.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

There isn't there's a stigma of like like well if I say that I have issues with systemic racism or white privilege then people are going to look down on me and that's not the case. It's I mean if you acknowledge it I mean that's that's the first step to any problem is acknowledging that you have a problem. Um so well I just have a couple questions for you just wrap everything up here we actually covered the majority of those first ones so we're gonna skip those first ones um let's I'm gonna save that one for the end. So just with uh I have a few things that I'm gonna write in the post of places that people can go but where can people go to continue the conversation?

SPEAKER_01 51:06

Are there any places that you've seen that um like websites groups that people can join or anything along those lines are there any out there that you have sure um so off the top of my head I think that anyone could just do a basic Google search um or I I mean not even Google Facebook search of different groups. There are a lot of groups out there that are you know uh talking about allyship so obviously that's for people who are white who want to um do better. There are definitely groups out there I can't name any of them off the top of my head and unfortunately I'm prepared with them but um I would say the best thing that you could do honestly is really just reach I I would say it's like reaching out to these different groups for allyship and just seeing what their member what their membership is like and and seeing how how you know each individual person uh kind of wants to be treated, right? Like everyone kind of shows each each other how they want to be treated by what they say or what they do. And I think that it's very important that we move forward thinking about that thinking about other people and really what it is that they they want and how they want to be treated because I think that that if we if we kind of treat people how we treat ourselves versus treating people how they want to be treated then you have something to go off of. It's like recognizing like oh a person wants to be treated like X, Y, and Z. Now how would I how would I want to be treated? Like I would want to be treated like this, right? And it's like going forth with that energy of like how would you want to treat yourself but recognizing that that person is someone else and that you and you want to kind of cater to what their lived experience is. You don't want to you don't want to um compromise your morals and your your own ideals but at the same time it's really not that hard to like know yourself well enough to get to want to get to know someone else and their experience.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

Yeah it's literally the fucking golden rule.

SPEAKER_01 53:09

Treat others as you would treat uh well I mean well I mean I I treat it's like treat literally the golden rule with like treat others like how you want to be treated I kind of divert from that a little bit because I really do think that it's almost like we should treat people treat people how we treat ourselves because we in many ways treat ourselves the best and it's like and although we really do treat ourselves the worst a lot of times when we fall short we're human I mean we have our own trials and tribulations but we treat ourselves the best. And so in those moments where we're let's say that you know someone should call us out or let's say that um you know someone is angry or upset with us or let's say that we've hurt someone in those times we don't people know that they don't like being called out they they they know that they don't like um being singled out or made fun of or whatever. So if we know that about ourselves the best thing that we can do for another person is give them that same ownership that that ability to like be themselves. We want to be ourselves so bad that we almost require everyone to treat us how we how they should treat us even though we don't honor that with them. So that's why I say it's kind of different than the golden rule because you know we we all love ourselves so much right we just love ourselves and if anyone goes against us then they're against us. Well other people are like that also yeah so if you want them if you want to treat people nicely and you want them to treat you nicely then I say treat them like you treat yourself.

SPEAKER_00 54:39

Respect you respect yourself right yeah I love that no I love that that is I love that thank you I appreciate that it's it's a little unique you know it is no but it that's that's perfect that I think encompasses so much about what we've talked about already um there is um an article that I'm gonna be posting that uh it was it was in heavy circulation like back in May beginning of June and I forget the title it's kind of in this thing but the the title of it was 75 things that white people can do for racial justice. Oh yeah and it was yes there are big there are big ticket items on that list and I get that not everyone can do everything you know what I mean but there were also like read black stories watch black stories right you know to talk to start a conversation you know be open like those were five separate things like on that list and there's 75 of them and they're not all huge. Um and I just want to sort of bring up that uh Cards Unlimited in Shady Side Pittsburgh um has an entire wall of uh black authors some local some not um so not only would you be uh expanding your mind you'd be supporting a small business um and uh let me see oh so then my that was just a complete side note because I forgot I was going back but um I mean you kind of already talked about this with where can people go to continue the conversation but with regards to you know everything that has happened thus far this year anyway sort of try to end this on a on a high note here what are you hopeful for in the future?

SPEAKER_01 56:32

Sure. So I think in general I'm hopeful for a a greater level of understanding I think this year a lot of people got to see kind of where people stood on all levels, right? This is the highlight this year was kind of like the highlight of what this country has the potential to become and and it in and it's only based off of where this country has come from. And seeing that here in 2020 it is the same kind of America of the 1920s 1930s 1940s 1950s 1960s like and and then when you parallel that to Jim Crow um you know right before that and you parallel that to uh slavery like if you really go if you really go in older slavery Jim Crow um you know Jim Crow civil rights all that it's wild to see that it's the same. So in this year I think that people are seeing where hatred can be and they're seeing how to not help perpetuate it. And so I'm hopeful that through this greater level of understanding that we all can come to a place of wanting to do the work. Because I think the problem is is that we all are generally at an understanding now but we're afraid to do the work. And and we're afraid because I would say that for black people it feels like well damn we've been doing a lot of work so why do we got to do even more? And then I think for white people it's but we did nothing wrong so we don't really know what to do. Right? And so it's like it's so it's so much but it's like whether you know what to do or not you know what it feels like to be singled out. Like I I want to wrap this around back to to m to what caused me to be so vocal this year, which was working at that gym. The the main leader of the gym is a woman and she kept essentially asking me how I could help, how she could help or how to how she could make it better. And I kept having to be like it's not my place to save you first off right like to teach you a person who was almost double my age sort of how to be a better person just because you don't understand it. But then I had to say this I said go with me on this journey. I'm gonna you know parallel you're a woman right and as a woman in predominantly a male industry fitness haven't you faced a lot of adversity to which you know you really only think that other women can relate to and and so you feel disenfranchised when you're with these with a lot of men sometimes unless you're you've got a lot of bravado and you you know how to deal with it. I said so ultimately in a male driven world so relate this to me as a black person in a white person driven world can't you say that you relate? So because you can relate can you now see how this can be an unsafe place for a black person just like how you know in the beginning for fitness for women it was like what are y'all doing here? This is a male sport men do fitness like and and so for me it was wild to see that she couldn't because of cognitive dissonance use the same belief system to figure out what to do but was relying on me as a black person to help her solve it. Wouldn't it be what like would she look at me as a male and as a you know because I'm a male and it's a male world even though I'm a black male and so maybe she benefits more than I do but as in a male world would she expect me to look at her and be like oh my God as a woman I'm not a woman so how do I make it better? No you would say that that's crap. As a human being you know how to treat a woman so as a woman you you know as a white woman as a white person you know how to treat a black person. It's really simple. So um you know to to wrap that around I think that um it I'm hopeful through all of this that um the understanding is that we we all can do better for one another and that we have to do the work and that it's really not anything to be afraid of or ashamed of. We all can do it together. We just kind of have to be willing to and I think that it goes beyond the conversation having the conversation is great but it goes beyond the conversation it really is about the actions and to me it's not the performative actions of like donating to charity or or you know calling out someone online. It's the action of you know start going to school board meetings and being on city councils and start um um and start you know really requesting that these different governors and politicians who who have constituents that they really are doing what they say that they are and holding them accountable. I mean there are actionable steps that we all can do that help fight the systemic portion of it, which is what we really need, even though at large we need to keep the conversation heightened. It just sucks that we can only really have the conversation when it's um after a tragedy and therefore people are heightened with emotion and therefore can't do logical things like you know do what we really need to do versus just shouting and yelling and screaming which you know has its place also because when you're not heard you do whatever you have to so that's my hope.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:49

I love that and I you know what I you I as you said it I I was like you know that might be a good title for the episode but I mean for everyone out there I think do the work get involved do what you have to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:01

Do yeah you you know what to do because because if something were to happen to you in a way that made you feel like an outsider and you in in in and it wasn't just you it was your entire community you would know what to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:14

Yep 100% true thank you so so much for talking with me this was perfect.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:20

Thank you this is exactly what I wanted this to be yes well thank you for having me I I'm I'm honored you magnificent bitch.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:30

Okay well uh we will be right back and that was true Barrett Fleming and uh you know what a wonderful seems like the wrong word to use, but it really was um a wonderful and open conversation. And one thing that I want to express on behalf of True was that um and we didn't cover it in our conversation. I didn't even realize until we were done because I mean this whole idea has just been such a huge topic. But we didn't really address or talk about Black Lives Matter. And so when we were done I told him that on behalf of him I would sort of say you know that when people say black lives matter they aren't talking about an organization. They are talking about their literal lives. And I wholeheartedly agree with him. And I just want to thank him again for talking with me. Uh the articles that were mentioned will be posted in the episode so please check those out and if you want to know more about true you can follow him on Instagram the handle which is uh at IMblade underscore Devereaux I probably said that wrong true I'm sorry um that'll be posted in the episode info as well I know this episode was a bit longer than I usually go um but you know the fact is is that important topics deserve the time. So I don't really need to go or get into anything else other than just say, you know, do your research get involved have the conversations um because I mean there's really just too much on the line in this day and age to not so that about wraps us up here. If you are a fan of making a martini let us know give us a rating and a review uh tell your friends coworkers neighbors lovers your pets Making a martini is um officially I believe on every possible platform where you can listen to podcasts which is awesome. Uh we just added iHeartRadio and Pandora So take a listen join us next time on Making a Martini up dry and straight to the point. Cheers